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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  October 1, 2017 11:30am-12:01pm BST

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the low-cost leader has voted. the low—cost travel company monarch is granted a 24—hour extension to its licence to sell package holidays. an air france flight sell package holidays. an air france flight was forced to make a sudden diversion when it lost part of an engine over the atlantic. those are the latest headlines. now it is time for dateline london. now on bbc news: dateline london. good morning, welcome to dateline. let the people decide. in kurdistan they have and this weekend catalans wanted to do the same, by holding a referendum on independence in the uk, a referendum of course in the uk gave us brexit. jeremy corbyn, leader of the opposition labour party, has announced he would give similar, decisive votes to people he says politicians ignore.
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in germany, the voters rewarded angela merkel with a term as chancellor weekend but also gave the far right their first seat in the parliament in more than 50 years, though the taboo against holding referendum in germany remains as strong as ever. to discuss all that i'm joined by henry chu, international editor of variety, polly toynbee from the guardian, maria margaronis, who writes for the nation, and stephanie bozon from germany's der welt. welcome to all of you, good to have you with us again. let's talk first of all about this question of referendums. what do you make of the way that the government in iraq and spain have responded to the referendums proposed and held? well, it makes you actually be more in favour of referendums then i would be normally inclined to be because i tend to think referendums put very complex questions in very simple terms which
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is something we saw with the brexit referendum, very vividly, where everybody was actually voting on a different topic and for different reasons on a very apparently very simple question but when you see the spanish government, resorting to the most repressive tactics, to prevent the catalan referendum happening, you think well there is a reason to do this after all and if i was a catalan and i were inclined to vote no i might be beginning to think about voting yes because of it. germany has of course a very different view to referendums. does that let the people decide question never resonated 7 no, of course it does but it does more on a local and regional level so because it is a federal system you do have something slightly different, like a referendum but more a popular vote on things like opening or closing down a station or... there have been quite vivid referendums, people's votes in the past, in stuttgart there was a big political thing about a new station being built or not, but in general there is a trust in the parliament which is out of german history,...
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because hitler used to hhold referendums or plebiscites, perceived as a way of kind of stirring up masses and then exploiting the politics. so the trust is actually there that this is a functioning democratic system that actually be parliament is in charge of, taking very compact decision and as we have seen with brexit for example, such a complex historic question, going down to 50—50 to a nation, it is anecdotal but if it is true that the day after the referendum the most googled word was european union, it makes you doubt whether it's good to do referendums. polly, in britain of course we have had lots of other referendums. this idea of parliament saying actually some decisions are just so fundamental that they had to be left to people to make them because otherwise we can't be sure that they will have the authority and the trust in the politicians making the decisions for them, and that tension between representative of democracy and that kind of democracy of the people is a difficult
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one to resolve. traditionally we have always thought of referendums as being instruments of demagogues, and they have turned out to be. the brexit referendum is the best example you could have of why referendums are monstrous. i think a referendum... that's only because you lost! no, i don't think so, because people might have changed their mind the next day anyway. it comes like a guillotine, something that happens at one time that nobody can rescind, there is nothing to be done about it. in representative democracy, you choose the people who are going to do the best they can within a certain ambit of political ideology, and there is flexibility and you can vote them out again. time will come round if they get it wrong you can get rid of them. but i do think though that a referendum for self—determination
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is a different thing, referendum for the scots or for the kurds or for the catalans, i think that is the only way. maybe at some point for the northern irish, who knows? i think the idea of trying to stop people expressing who they think they are as a nation, that is a simple question. that is a different sort of referendum to the one say the mad ones you have in california. coming from california where on the november ballot last year there we re i7 ballot initiatives that the public were allowed to put on the ballot and vote on very complex questions that then nobody was able to actually do wade through and then understand, that for example one validation cancelled out another one so it became not an exercise in direct democracy really that everybody think it should be but rather an exercise in confusion and so i agree that often these referendums make very complex
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questions into productive yes or no answers which don't really fit. i'm not sure that... a referendum is the only peaceful way to choose self—determination, to choose nationhood but i'm not sure that's always a simple question either because from what i know of the kurdish referendum the kurds are, like the palestinians, historically stateless people who are a nation, there is no question that there is a kurdish nation, culturally, linguistically etc. but it is divided among several countries? it is divided amongst countries, politically difficult right now because immediately turkey has set if you vote yes we will block the oil pipeline because turkey is in a state of civil war with its own kurds, and has been for years. there is internal politics there, too, and demagoguery going on to because i know that it is not necessarily popular, basani, with the younger voters in iraqi kurdistan and this is a way to boost his own popularity. he is the president of kurdistan? he is the president of kurdistan. he is behind this,
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and that result was clear, 93% in favour. absolutely because of course the kurds are going to vote yes for independence. how can they implemented, that's the problem. they can't come at the moment. and referendums that place in a vacuum either, either internally in a domestic environment or in a geopolitical one and so a referendum to actually succeed when it comes to nationhood, with south sudan for example, that was something where there was un backing, actual a framework internationally for something like that to happen and in this case you don't have that. if referendums polarise people, force them into this camp or this camp and never the twain shall meet, is there an argument if you are to have them that they should have more than one question, that actually you would kind of dissipate some of this if you had multiple questions? it doesn't make it all that much easier because you are still going to have a lot of complexity in it, still have lots of people often by the time you get to the day of voting they are actually voting oi'i different sorts of issues. for instance we had the referendum on the alternative vote system. you would think it is a no—brainer can you say to your electorate, would you like a little more choice in your voting system ?
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and the people who are against it, mostly the conservatives who were going to possibly lose out on a constitutional change, managed to persuade people that they didn't want more choice, that they wouldn't rather put a one, two, three order on the ballot paper because they were told it was going to... politics was going to cost a lot more money, millions of pounds would be wasted on elections. it was all absolute nonsense. also people wanted to get their own back on the liberal democrats who they thought it was a fix of theirs. it became about a whole lot of different things. afterwards you stood back and thought this is extraordinary. people are offered more choice and they say no thank you and you know something has gone badly wrong. one place where choice looks a little simpler, the outcome of that choice going on now for months is in germany where angela merkel was re—elected as chancellor. she will now have been in office for 12 years, and will be in office for a further four. it has left her with few options
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orforming a government. the social democrats who came second say they won't continue in coalition with mrs merkel‘s cdu. she could not stomach working with the next largest party, alliance for germany, the far for germany, the far right, which got i2%. as for the free democrats and the green party puts together, could secure them a parliamentary majority, well, there is little on which they agree. the chancellor has already moved her finance minister apparently to please them. french president emmanuel macron‘s ambitions to reshape the eurozone depend on german support and such a coalition might not give it. stefanie, it should have been a great celebration for angela merkel, is it as good an election result as she might have hoped for? and how much will exchange? and how much will it change? no, of course it was not the result she had hoped for. she went at the same night saying strategically we have achieved our goal because i am back in office. as you say it is going to be a bumpy time now because there is only one coalition between cdu,
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black, option and this is the so—called jamaica coalition between cdu, black, the fco the liberals, yellow, and the greens, but it is going to take quite some time to form this coalition but the latest poll is saying that around 60% of the germans want this coalition, so there is quite a lot of pressure on the chancellor and everyone else especially the cc0, the bavarian branch of the cdu, they lost a lot of votes and last sunday, and they do not want to compromise now because they have another election coming up next year. they think there has been too much compromise. exactly. especially for the greens who are pro—refugee, pro—eu, eu in the sense of what the bavarians don't like, more money in southern states and southern eu members and so on, so it is going to be very difficult but there is another thing that will put pressure on them and this is the afd,
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the right—wing party. i think there is a sense in germany that we need to form a coalition, solid coalition soon because by the majority, 88% of the people didn't vote for the afd, they see this as a threat. maria, in terms of how it is perceived in the rest of the europe, as mentioned emmanuel macron is very ambitious this plan for reshaping certainly the eurozone part of the eu, britain will have left, and that might make things a little simpler. in 18 months or so. is that made less likely by what is happening in germany? i don't know, who knows what will happen in the eu? why worry at the moment, the right of the afd is at a with what will be happening over europe, far right parties all over gaining support and we have seen this revolt against the consensus that had begun this kind of lump in the centre of both centre—left and centre—right which was neoliberal
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economics, globalised economy, etc. so my worry is that europe will perhaps restructure itself internally but close borders more firmly outside, and the first thing emmanuel macron spoke about in his speech was defence, security borders. angela merkel was damaged in part by her approach to immigration. yes, the policy was the bright spot in a shockingly bad response by europe to the syrian crisis. she paid a price. she has. these are difficult things to work out but i don't want to see fortress europe kind of ordered with military defence against the rest of the world but nevertheless walkable inside. do you think that is more likeable, stefanie, that sort of the approach angela merkel has two adopted in terms of riding the two horses? that is what she has been doing in the past months. cast our minds back to 2015 where there was a
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daily 10,000 or 12,000 people daily coming into only bavaria, so now this has not, why has it start? because in the balkans the borders have gone up and because the external borders are more secured also because there is a deal with turkey and merkel has been travelling to northern african countries to stop this influx and i think there should be no delusion, this is the reason it could have been worse with the afd if not also other countries might have helped angela merkel by stopping this flow. do you see, polly, as a result of this and given in a sense europe might be getting less fractious if britain leads because it has been a relu cta nt britain leads because it has been a reluctant eu member, will this be a task easier or harderfor reluctant eu member, will this be a task easier or harder for angela merkel? she remains the key figure. she and macron together will stop one shouldn't forget that it is a great relief that both of them are there at the stabilising factor. all
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of these fringe nacho nurse dick extreme right parties have been essentially defeated, they did not win in france in holland and germany. not this time, though. will enough change prevent that is to mark at one point in britain, we had the ukip winning15% of the vote just because we have a different electoral system they didn't get a single mp but they are still very much on the margins and i don't think we should be overly obsessed. the great majority of europeans remain decent anti anti—extremist, andl remain decent anti anti—extremist, and i don't see an imminent move to change the essential values of europe which sadly britain is leaving but we should be a part of that. i agree with you, it is a good
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point but looking at germany also what we call the liberal centre has moved more to the right, or certainly in the general election and that is why i don't think that the policy of open orders from germany can continue. i can't talk for other countries but this is a no—go because the long price that i be paid for this is too big. do you think that if it changes it would be actually meaning that britain need never have left europe because they themselves, even if it was anti—immigration, that caused our referendum result, do you think the result will change the rules so much in europe that we will question why we left? i think it is far too short to change that until march 2019 when the country is out anyway. open borders is about people coming from outside of europe and within europe i think on the continent there isn't all that much objection with internal eu migration in the way that there was here in the country
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here because i think that will be solved. lots of that will be very confused anyway. all of those outside europe people arriving in germany would come through the borders and have come to us, it was a much more anti—muslim, to put it crudely, feeling than it was really anti—polish or east european. crudely, feeling than it was really anti—polish or east europeanlj think anti—polish or east european.” think i agree with stephanie that the danger is not so much that the far right parties will take power because their rhetoric and thinking seeps into what used to be the centre—right parties and move the whole spectrum to the right. and i think that is happening and in europe we also have two very right wing governments, hungary, poland, czech republic, and so the issue is how to manage this so that it doesn't infect the whole system but i also don't think it is about immigration only, i don't think that
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the far right for it is only about immigration processes. in terms of germany and angela merkel was my position here henry gee had been regarded as kind of the most powerful force in european regarded as kind of the most powerfulforce in european politics. if she is weakened, what are the indications are that, notjust within europe but internationally given that germany seems to be ticking more international roles in recent years? she was once described to me at the queen of europe but now that crown is tarnished and before in terms of keeping her own grand coalition together, keeping that domestic side intact that is easier andl domestic side intact that is easier and i think the refugee crisis sparked this fragmentation and the unfortunate seeping in the fry up right. that means she will happily ta ke right. that means she will happily take care of backyard a bit more and do incremental with macron for example a wider european idea that is on the rocks at the moment. macron at home is not necessarily going to be able to put some through so
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going to be able to put some through soi going to be able to put some through so i think she is quite weakened, and that is notjust europe or germany. i think people have a sense ofa germany. i think people have a sense of a loss of identity a loss of culture and that is notjust of a loss of identity a loss of culture and that is not just about immigration and foreigners, it is about the decline of old communities, deindustrialisation, what has happened all over europe for economic and political reasons and notjust for economic and political reasons and not just because for economic and political reasons and notjust because of foreigners coming in. germany had been thought to the bb country that had got the balance of that right for a while, that it had a sense of that confidence about its social system, that people felt that there was a german identity, in the sense of leaving aside the nationalism question, the trouble with the way their germany function. that is true, in general, i think that is true, in general, i think that is true, you can see however that with the afd read there is a western german phenomenon, and you don't see that in the east and you say that cultural and economic reasons, germany has the historic reasons and the fall of communism in as well. people in the east like the north of
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england people couldn't quite manage the gender schedule a new system of capitalism so this is where you have to pick up these people and bring them in. this is a big challenge, this is why ijust said there is a sense of urgency to fight the answer to this now because it has an effect on germany but it also has an effect on germany but it also has an effect on europe because it angela merkel can't move quickly she will not be able to do much about europe and there is a lot as you said emmanuel macron being desperate and he has only five years, the clock ticks for him, they need to find common ground. she could be spending months forming a government? theoretically she could but there is a sense by christmas that it needs to be done. it will be all over by christmas x macro and then brexit causes low on the agenda. we think it is the most important thing in the german elections but nowhere! germans generally like to hug the centre
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ground in politics making the right of the afd even more dramatic. tony blair persuaded britain by the labour party that it was only possible to win power by occupying the centre ground and back then jeremy corbyn as a sceptic a fringe figure on the left convinced a majority could still be won by persuading voters to shift his way. 20 years later tony blair is the embarrassing relic of labour party and the leader. in the general election this year, corbin do better than expected and wednesday told his conference that the next election could see his dream delivered. polly, jeremy corbyn was saying the centre of british politics shifts around and it shifted in his direction. is he right? i'm not sure the concept of a centre is useful. if you have a binary system, you have totally disarray tories and led by somebody that nobody in the party likes very much. and so it is a question of which is least worse. i
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think that is what the last election was about. there is no doubt however that he has won 40% of the vote, with a manifesto that was extremely popular. the moment his manifesto was published, the public opinion polls changed suddenly, 11 points behind and suddenly he is really up there as a contender. people are very much in favour of bringing back our appalling rail system, the disaster of the privatisation of utilities is now being exposed as what a mistake that was made by thatcher so i think there really has beena thatcher so i think there really has been a change of attitude, whether people would call themselves very left wing, i'm not sure however he isa left wing, i'm not sure however he is a pragmatic, retail policy, free tuition for students, bronzing old people he will get bigger pensions and he has ever had before, and old—fashioned bribery election in a way! right and left of cores are
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relative terms. there will always be a shifting sender when right and left themselves shift, and we should not forget that this tory government certainly under the previous by minister, david cameron, was one of the most radical in terms of the cuts implemented, we hadn't seen austerity cuts like that in a generation so that has actually pulled the country in one direction as well. we don't talk about that much but if we are now talking about corbin pulling it the other way, it is actually pulling it back to be what might have been the centre at the time so i actually think that things have shifted in this country, the rhetoric has shifted. stephanie when you look at it as an outsider explaining this back to your readers in germany, do you see something similar in terms of the kind of centre ground moving? because from what you are saying talking about moving to the white in germany, is it moving to the left in britain? is that the perception? looking at the polls, it is obviously moving to the left but i was also at the party
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co nfe re nce left but i was also at the party conference in brighton and especially at this fringe meeting, people are talking about the revolution! a clear break, but we can't reform this country but you have to have a clear break towards socialism, and i can understand why people find the idea of labour right now far better, they are fair and dealing with social injustice and especially for the young generation there is an appalling outlook for there is an appalling outlook for the future and they can't afford their own property, they don't know how they will live when they are older, it is very scary for the younger generation and that is something we do not experience in germany yet. sol something we do not experience in germany yet. so i struggle to grasp this shift to the left in the country. but i can understand it! haven't you always had people on the fringes of the labour party talking about revolution?! it is now kind of any manifesto, that is difference.” don't know, it is always actually corbin's labour party in terms of labour history quite conservative,
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in the sense that they did in the older mainstream of labour tradition. it was blair who was the labour radical, who shifted the party way off its original base, and what corbin is talking about is taxing people do have a good welfare state which is what the labour party was all about. jeremy sorry, tony blairsaid was all about. jeremy sorry, tony blair said you couldn't win if you did that because britain had changed. it is worth remembering that people forget that tony blair's manifesto in 1997 when he won was incredibly radical. he had a £5 billion windfall tax just whipping money off the utilities because they hadn't been so badly privatised. he hadn't been so badly privatised. he had a whole series of really very radical policies, and now people regard him as well, the was iraq war tony blair and people forget, does that suggest that it is about how you dress things up? he was doing radical is up but saying it was was model and serious and
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getting away with it, butjeremy corbyn says we will the radicals and whether we see him as by minister committee has just simply picked whether we see him as by minister committee hasjust simply picked up ona committee hasjust simply picked up on a public mood publicly sympathetic to this. i think this was old—fashioned bribery manifesto here. he said he would raise anyone's taxes except the top 5%. that is impossible and the sort of things he wants to do don't add up with that. i i think it was quite traditional, there is something for everybody and nobody had to pay for it, classic labour. here in britain and around europe, purely left and right the concept is misleading because we have emmanuel macron, neither of the left or the right and he is kind of somewhere in the centre but for france that is radical. it is about to change and i think many people feel that directions are wrong, whichever directions are wrong, whichever direction you want to call it the american right, left, orsomething beyond that. people want to reverse course, or feel that the beyond that. people want to reverse course, orfeel that the present course, orfeel that the present course that they are on is not the right one. henry, maria, stephanie,
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polly, thank you very much. some big issues there, fascinating stuff, some important countries and we will talk about more of those on dateline later this week. from all of us, goodbye! we have a damp and breezy picture today. sky is grey across many parts of the country, seeming a little bit like this one like our weather watchers in sound andrews. drizzly rain coming out of all that cloud is an heavy burst of rain, to come across western parts of scotland, the hills of north—west england along to. south, patchy, drizzly rain, is clear skies moving into
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northern ireland and wales and the south—west of england during the south—west of england during the south b00|ng second part of the afternoon. a breeze will also be a fit billy nacho feature. it averages around 19 degrees, mild but cooler later on tonight. in terms of the american football, nfl at wembley this afternoon we are expecting a little bit of rain, securely later on in the afternoon as cloud thickens there with breeze picking up too. that band of rain delays to the east as we head to the evening and we will continue to see heavy downpours filtering in across scotland, northern ireland, too, on a brisk wind picking up overnight. this that wind picking up overnight. this that wind and cloud around it will be mild and certainly a dumb start to monday morning. the weather will be humane less —— are less humid than recently. that is all down to this area of low pressure clearing its way eastwards, weather spiced isobars around that area of low pressure so a windy story, and certainly for the monday morning
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rush—hour those winds could be disruptive, 60 mile bow gusts was pulled through the central belt of scotla nd pulled through the central belt of scotland and also windy across northern ireland and northern england, too. there are also some heavy showers with the rumble of thunder. south of the uk, different on monday, dry with some sunshine but certainly a breezy day where ever you are. windy across northern parts. later in the day winds start to ease a little bit so it won't feel too bad in the shelter particularly further south, 14—18d are fresher than what we seen recently. a bit of rain in the south—west later on monday, some parts of southern england, too, but clearing on tuesday. an improving picture by then, not as windy as monday, still breezy in the north, showers filtering in on the breeze, but further south not a bad day actually, sunshine sees temperatures cooler than we have been around 12-16, but cooler than we have been around 12—16, but all in all the outlook of
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the week is a fairly unsubtle one. spells of rain in the north and west, things will be feeling cooler than they have been. this is bbc news. i'm ben brown. the headlines at midday: 0n the first day of the conservative conference, theresa may says she's sorry the party didn't win a majority at the general election. i know people who went out during that election who worked really hard and i'm sorry the result was not the one all of us wanted. 38 people are injured as voters clash with riot police in the spanish region of catalonia, as many try to take part in a banned referendum on independence. the low—cost travel company, monarch, has been granted a 24—hour extension to its licence to sell package holidays. an air france flight was forced to make a sudden diversion when it
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lost part of an engine over the atlantic. also in the next hour — the closing ceremony of the invictus games.

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